Curse

cambylobacter · Jul 31, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Hi chaps.
I am in a highly PvE orientated guild, who really for the first time are trying to get a bit of GvG done. So far, people have just been going to the guildhall, and we've been cobbling together a team out of what we had,, suffice to say, we all know that isn't a recipe for glory, so I'm trying to develop my abilities in running a build.

I felt for starting out, it would be best to run a balanced build, and I've spent a little while in Observer mode seeing the various maps and how they are playing out.

What I'm trying to do is get a discussion on my guild forums about taking GvG a bit more seriously, and that I want to start posting a build at the start of the week, and on the Sunday event, we'll run that particular build and discuss what we've learned.

What I'd like to do here, is just quote my first ever build commentary below, and see if you guys think I'm going in the right direction.

I'm sorry if the post is a bit lengthy, and I've gone to a bit of detail on the Necromancer and Mesmer elements as I thought for my guildmates (who are all keen PvE-ers) it may provide some insight to the roles.

I am completely inexperienced at GvG period, so any constructive comments would be really appreciated, and I do appreciate your time in reading!

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QUOTED FROM GAELIC STORM PvP BOARD:

Quote:

Can I get some thoughts on a basic PvP strategy for GvG please. I'd like to come up with a pre-designated build for us to run, however I'm going to try and keep it as simple as possible.

What I've included below are the guidelines for a build that hopefully won't be hard for us to put together. I've tried to incorporate some basic strategies and use the basis of the prebuilds were possible. For some, a spare character slot may be needed, but I have tried to come up with a build that we could probably do with our existing characters more or less.

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a) Basic Makeup
b) Basic Strategy
c) Individual character skills

1. Ranger
2. Ranger
3. Ranger
4. Necromancer
5. Domination Mesmer
6. Domination Mesmer
7. Monk
8. Monk

Possible Switch-in for 2nd Mesmer.

9. Ritual Lord
10. Elementalist Wards and either Spike Damage or Water based slow downs.
11. A Monk with smiting abilities.

The basis of the strategy is as follows. the 3 Rangers are providing ranged, sustainable damage. The Necromancer is supporting the party using enchantments, and the two monks are keeping everyone healed. The 2 Mesmers are providing e-denial for critical casters, plus a couple of utility uses (see below).

I really wanted to create a Balanced build, that could deal with a variety of situations. I felt as a reasonable basis there should be 2 monks, 3 direct damage dealers and 1 mesmer shutdown. The last 2 slots were where I could shape the build. A third monk would have been reasonable, I think a Ritualist would have been even better. a second Mesmer is nearly a luxury and could easily be switched out. The Necromancer could be used a few ways - I was torn between Orders, and support healer. An Elementalist using Wards would be reasonable too.

As for the 3 direct damage roles, I wanted to do one of three things: Either, 3 Elementalist spikers, 3 Rangers, or 3 Warriors/Assassins. All three would have been viable. In the end I felt Ranger would be the most suitable choice, as there are already a number of level 20 Rangers in the guild, and being ranged and not necessarily as mana or health dependant as an Ele or a Warrior, could deal with a bit of DP better.

Find below a description and informal introduction to what I'm thinking of for the 8 characters.

1. Ranger
2. Ranger
3. Ranger
4. Necromancer
5. Domination Mesmer
6. Domination Mesmer
7. Monk
8. Monk

The Mesmer Role.

The Mesmer can be taken 4 ways here. One is Energy Denial, normally focused on the Monks, to allow the rest of the team to kill targets whilst the monks lack the ability to heal their party members. This is a very common Mesmer role.

Another is Shutdown Hexes, using the likes of Backfire, Empathy, Ignorance, Arcane Conundrum and many more to comprimise the ability of most classes to perform their function. The major issue with this is it's diminishing success with organised teams. Against unorganised teams, it is the most powerful form of Mesmer, but against a team with a strategy for dealing with Hexes, it becomes far less effective.

A third way of using Mesmers is for interupts. This is by far the least common form, though some builds may include the token interupt. In general there are simply better ways of interupting players.

A final way is Anti-Caster Shutdown skills, which is an effective way of removing the casters ability to perform their role. Using skills such as Arcane Thievery, Arcane Larceny, Signet of Humility, Diversion, Blackout and Ignorance you can effectively remove a caster from the battlefield. The 6 listed skills above as an example could remove 2 spells for 40 seconds, a further skill for a minute, all signets for 18 seconds, foe's Elite skill for 14 seconds, and if you wanted to, the whole foes skill bar for 6 seconds. What makes this build interesting is that it isn't reliant on hexes.

There are a number of things the Mesmer can therefore do on the battlefield, and in many PvP teams there are roles for 2 Mesmers out of the 8, simply for the diversity in what they can do, and the degree to which they can reduce the efficiency of the opponent. In the build here, 1 Mesmer is definitely key, and though I have included 2, you could choose to switch 1 out if needed. I've included below the build I would ideally like to see.

Mesmer/Monk

Including headpiece and runes (Sup Dom):
12 Fastcast
14 Domination
11 Inspiration
1 Healing

1. Energy Surge [E]
2. Energy Burn
3. Signet of Weariness
4. Energy Tap
5. Ether Feast
6. Shatter Hex
7. Resurrection Chant
8. Unnatural Signet

Energy Surge, Energy Burn, and Signet of Weariness are all - as you would guess - Energy removing spells. Combined, they rob the foe of 24 Energy, rob all foes in the area of 8 Energy, do 160 points of damage to the foe, and 80 points of damage to all foes in the area. The bottom line is, a target monk is quickly going to find his or her ability to heal comprimised due to lack of energy.
With 2 E-Denial Mesmers, that means we can efficiently and quickly deal with 2 enemy Monks. Their only real defence against this is Spell Breaker, which means you may want to open with Energy Burn rather than Surge so as to not risk wasting your Elite, and wait 18 seconds if your Burn can't cast.

The fourth E-Denial spell is Energy Tap, which will not only rid the foe of a further 6 energy points, but will also give the Mesmer 12 back. If the Mesmer needs healing they can use Ether Feast to rob a foe of 3 points of energy, and gain 117 health in the process.
Ether Lord was considered in the build, but it was overlooked in this instance.

Now, there will be times whilst you feel you can't E-Denial at the moment, or are simply waiting for the spells to recycle. There are 3 other roles for the Mesmers.

a) Shatter Hex: If any team member gets a hex, they should ctrl-click it to alert a Mesmer. In return it is the Mesmer's job to Shatter the Hex, doing 114 points of damage to foes in the vicinity in the process.

b) Unnatural Signet: This spell is perfect for destroying Ranger and Ritualist spirits. Therefore it is the job of the Mesmers to take these out of play as quickly as possible. If none are in use, they can use this signet as a free 71 direct damage to anyone they want! Save either for a finishing move or for added pressure on a monk, or called target.

c) Res Chant: I really had to think whether I wanted anyone to bring a Rez with them, and to be honest, this skill could be swapped out. It brings people up with as much health as the caster, so if the Mes isn't injured, it's a fine skill to use. It doesn't give the recipient much energy though, so try to use on Rangers, or have a Necro with Blood Ritual on hand for the revived ally.

Brief Overview

Mesmers decide which monk they are going to take out, and continually e-denial them. When possible, kill all spirits, shatter hexes, and revive dead team mates.

The Necromancer Role.

I was in two minds about which way to take the Necromancer. One thought was just to go Blood / Protection, and have the Necromancer offer some party support with monk spells such as Aegis, and do some Blood Spiking to go with it. The second thought was to run an Orders build to support the direct damage. In the end, I settled on a support build as below, but there is plenty of scope for tweaking.

Necromancer/Monk

Including headpiece and runes:
14 Blood
4 Soul Reaping
12 Protection

20% Enchantment duration mod.

1. Blood Ritual
2. Strip Enchantment
3. a Blood Magic life stealing spell
4. Necrotic Traversal
5. Aegis
6. Pacifism
7. Martyr
8. Plague Touch

There are two sides to the role here, and actually it is quite a complex one to play. It requires reference to the party bar for doing Blood rituals and keeping an eye on conditions. It requires knowledge of what is happening around to judge whether Aegis is appropriate. It requires concentration to cast Necrotic Traversal every single time someone dies, it requires spatial awareness to get Pacifism done, and it needs a player to kep an eye on target calling so he or she can support with Enchantment Stripping and Spiking. This is one of the hardest roles in this team to play. Going through the skills then...

Blood Ritual, nice and simple, when a monk asks for it, trot over and give them an energy injection. The Mesmers shouldn't need it very often but it is possible.

Everytime someone dies they leave a corpse. It is of the utmost importance the other team are not allowed to use that corpse, whether it be for Wells, Minions of whatever; that corpse belongs to our Necromancer. Therefore, we pick Necrotic Traversal for one real reason; its cast-time. 5 Energy cost, 3/4 second cast time, it means it's efficient and quick. The Necromancer's trigger that he needs to cast is simply seeing an XP number of his or her head - as soon as they do, Necrotic Traversal, every time, without fail. Harder than it sounds.

Now, Pacifism and Aegis.
The Necromancer needs to judge how to use these, a nice one is simply to cast Aegis in battle, to give everyone in the patry 50% chance of blocking attacks - very handy versus Warriors, Assassins and Rangers. When that is up, start picking off the classes listed above one at a time, and call them "Big Bad Necro is casting Pacifism on The Wily Assassin!". Everyone in teamchat can see The Wily Assassin is under Pacifism so they know to leave them alone. The other team can have hex removal of course (and should) but it's still a worthy inclusion.
With a 30 second recast time, both the above spells need to be used appropriately: cast Aegis at the onset of the heat of battle, cast Pacifism on a target who is most needed to be neutralised, such as someone attacking one of our monks.

Martyr didn't have to be included here, I could have picked Blood is Power for example. However, Martyr can in essence, neutralise all condition issues for the whole team, and taking that duty away from the monks can be helpful in the long run. With that said then, if conditions start appearing, simply Martyr them and Plague Touch them away. Try and touch them to appropriate people if possible, Dazed to casters, Weakness to Assassins, for example.

Finally, Strip Enchantment and a Blood Damage spell. This is the lowest priority for the Necromancer. Basically, if they are on top of their duties and notice the team are going after someone then the Necromancer can help out. So, let us say for example the two monks are e-denial neutralised and the team want to quickly kill one of them off. The Caller may say in Ventrilo, "attacking Bob the Healer in 5 seconds, 5..4...3....2.....1... SPIKE!" Now, Strip Enchantment is a 1 second cast time spell, so when the count is between 2 and 1 cast Strip Enchantment and any protective enchantment should be removed just before the spike hits. Then join in with a Blood Damage spell and carry on.

Brief Overview

Very difficult multi-tasking role. Offering support doing energy replenishing, protections spells, condition removal and spike assistance, an experienced player able to detach themselves from the minutae and see the overall picture is needed to provide an excellent support role.

The Monk Role

The monk role's are as per normal, with a Boon Prot build. There are Monk premades that can be taken and ideally both monks should be Protection biased. The only exception should be an Infuse Health Heal Monk.

The Ranger Role

I chose Rangers to provide the damage due to my love of all things Rangery and generally unclean

It also means Don can re-allocate skills points for Clemency and use his R/A to lay some smackdown from afar

There is total flexibility for the choice of skills taken, though most likely it would be an Expertise and Marksmanship build, with some extra points in Wilderness Survival. I'd like Noz and Gyding to offer their knowledge to develop the 3 Ranger builds.

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That is the basis for the build I'd like to try. I have gone into a lot of detail on the Necromancer and Mesmer side as they provide very specific roles. The Ranger role can be very flexible skill-choice wise, and the Monk roles are fairly well documented.

If all members can be acquainted with this build concept, and any feedback would be appreciated.

Byron · Aug 01, 2006, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Rangers are not sustainable damage - their attack speed and lack of deep wound attack makes them very weak at pressure and also give them a relatively low killing power. They are good for spiking, interrupts, flag running, or condition pressure, however.

I did once try a sustainable ranger build. It involves having a smiter cast Judges Insight on you, having a shortbow, and using both Read the Wind and Tiger's fury. The damage output is pretty decent, but the killing power is very low. Spikes are the way to go with rangers IMHO.

Ry Dia · Aug 01, 2006, 08:47 AM // 08:47

My suggestion would be to find a build on the net that's proven and use that. Designing your own build's starting off is a nice concept, however in my experience doing it they usually end up very subpar. =/

Your current build would likely not get a kill on anything to be honest. You have 2 e-denials, but no pressure damage to make any use of them. I see 3 glaring problems.

1) Your pressure is weak, so pressure kills are out.

2) Your spike is weak, so spiking down anyone who gets a single heal is out.

3) Your defense is absolutely weak, a normal balance is going to roll over you by the 3min mark probably.

I think trying to be original and design your own builds is a good thing, but it's by no means easy especially if you don't have a good understanding of gvg.

A couple other notes, mostly in regards to certain skills.

1) Martyr isn't used for a number of reasons, first is obviously it's elite, 2nd it's ineffective at controlling disease. Usually Extinguish is used as it directly cures 1 condition per member. If you have to clean blinds off, you use draw conditions.

2) Necrotic Traversal isn't particularly needed in gvg.

3) Ether Feast/Energy tap, drop both and get Diversion/Drain enchantment. If you want the mesmer to stay alive better, put 3 points into illusion and use distortion. Also, I personally see no point to a sup rune on a mesmer. You can run 12(+2) 10(+1) 8(+1) easily enough, and still have points for distortion I think.

4) Unnatural signet I personally wouldn't use, you'll never get to spirits with a mesmer anyway.

5) Shatter Hex is ok if you have warriors, but you don't. Most cases I'd use shatter enchant over shatter hex.

JR · Aug 01, 2006, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ry Dia

My suggestion would be to find a build on the net that's proven and use that. Designing your own build's starting off is a nice concept, however in my experience doing it they usually end up very subpar.

I concur. Look at MH, they freely admit that they got where they are now by copying Te's build.

I have always found that a lot of fun in this game comes from putting together builds, for me at least. However you really need to have a fair amount of experience to make something really worth using.

cambylobacter · Aug 01, 2006, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Guys, I really appreciate your advice!

I'll look for inspiration from some balanced builds I can find, and wait till I have more experience before I start tweaking it too much!

Thank y'all very much

Neo-LD · Aug 01, 2006, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Firstly, I agree with the others who say to first copy a proven balanced build from observer mode. Its much easier to focus on improving our playing when you dont ahve to focus on improving your build (much).

As for the build you posted, I'll briefly go through some of the problems with it, since I find that it is helpful to not just have a good or bad build, but understand why it is good, or in this case, bad. (Heres a crash course in some gvg metagame, condensed into an unjustly small amount of my scribbling)

Quote:

1. Ranger
2. Ranger
3. Ranger
4. Necromancer
5. Domination Mesmer
6. Domination Mesmer
7. Monk
8. Monk

Rangers are not used as primary damage dealers, warriors are. Ranger's overall damage output is not comparable to that of warriors, especially because of a lack of deep wound. Rangers can instead be used as pressure through support damage and degeneration (poison/bleed), or used as a spike assist (dual shot -> savage shot)

Also, that build has no flag runner. You need one.

Quote:

1. Energy Surge [E]
2. Energy Burn
3. Signet of Weariness
4. Energy Tap
5. Ether Feast
6. Shatter Hex
7. Resurrection Chant
8. Unnatural Signet

That mesmer has the right idea but does it the wrong way - it has alot of bad skills. Signet of Weariness has too long of a recharge unless used with Mantar of Inscriptions. Energy Tap is not as effective as other management options. Ether Feast is not useful - casters usually dont take self heals. Shatter Hex is too expensive. Unatural Signet just plain sucks. Drop everything except Surge, Burn, and Res Chant. Add useful domination skills like Diversion and Blackout, management skills like Drain Enchantment and Power Drain, and self protection spells like Distortion.

Quote:

1. Blood Ritual
2. Strip Enchantment
3. a Blood Magic life stealing spell
4. Necrotic Traversal
5. Aegis
6. Pacifism
7. Martyr
8. Plague Touch

Sorry to say but that build just sucks in general. Pacifism is too prone to removal and has too long of a recharge. Plague Touch is not useful at all because necros dont care about conditions. Matyr is not worth the elite slot, necros almost exclusively use Offering of Blood or Tainted Flesh. Corpses arent that important in gvg. Aegis isnt useful unless chained with other aegises. Strip Enchantment does not have a useful effect, you'd be better off putting a Drain Enchantment on some other character. I dont think I can see a single skill I like on that bar.